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Site Specific: [Sticky] Site Rules & Design Submission Guidelines (Last Updated: 25 May 2008)

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      CommentAuthorJJenZz
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008
     
    Posted By: ainslieI'm not sure about the hobbyist / designers comment. Just who do you consider hobbyist or designer? To me, if you submit a template you are a designer. Some may be better than others but that's life. Nobody needs a BA to make templates!

    That's not what i was saying. I did not say hobbyists are not designers. There are designers here that do it as a hobby and designers here that do it for a living. Those that do it for a living are the ones that are more likely to put the extra effort in because they need the return on their invested time.
    •  
      CommentAuthorperthmetro
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008
     
    Posted By: JJenZzThose that do it for a living are the ones that are more likely to put the extra effort in because they need the return on their invested time

    I disagree. I see professional designers spit out lots of very ordinary blog designs purely to use OD as a means to show sponsored links and be seen. I see hobbyists put in enormous efforts as they want to learn and show off their new found skills for critique.
    • CommentAuthorainslie
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008
     
    Ok, I get what you are saying, but I'm not sure that this is a place for "professionals" however good there designs. I do not see that professionals need to submit here. If they need to be here they should abide by the spirit of this site.

    I would rather have a group of talented "hobbyists" any day than a top designer.
    •  
      CommentAuthorJJenZz
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008 edited by JJenZz on the 24th May 2008 at 13:53:51 EDT
     
    Posted By: perthmetroYou don't visit here much do you Jen. There's a guy called Wolfgang, he's a priest and would you believe a 'hobbyist'. He released a series of designs called Multiflex and they are all PD and they are some of the most downloaded designs in the world. They are nothing less than jaw dropping. Yours are 'nice' but i wouldn't pay for them, I've seen better PD ones here by non designers.

    Don't underestimate the hobbyist.

    I actually visit here everyday. Just because I do not say much and haven't submitted under this account lately does not mean I am not here. I am actually odt and have submitted a template under that account that has been downloaded over 1000 times in less than a week. So yeah, you may not buy my current designs but that might be because A) I created them way over a year ago, B) I would never make the effort on a free job that I would on a paid one and C) they're offered free so why would anyone buy them.

    And yes there are some hobbiests here that are able to create free jaw dropping designs purely for 'goodness' sake... I didnt say there aren't but I would imagine the better designs designed by freelancers far outweigh those designed by hobbiests.
    •  
      CommentAuthorJJenZz
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008
     
    Posted By: ainslieI would rather have a group of talented "hobbyists" any day than a top designer.

    I will remember that when you all start moaning about the lack of inspirational designs here again tongue
    • CommentAuthorainslie
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008
     
    Posted By: JJenZzI will remember that when you all start moaning about the lack of inspirational designs here again tongue
    Lol, I asked for that, I suppose bigsmile
    • CommentAuthorfernbap
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008
     
    Posted By: JJenZz
    And yes there are some hobbiests here that are able to create free jaw dropping designs purely for 'goodness' sake... I didnt say there aren't but I would imagine the better designs designed by freelancers far outweigh those designed by hobbiests.


    ... and for each good design with sponsored links you get 10 (or more) complete pieces of trash that were made and submited just for adding more links to this website.

    Also, quality sells. As simple as that. You just need to make the world aware of the quality of your work.

    And you are saying that you PREFER not to show the best of you to the world??? That is what i call devious thinking
    • CommentAuthorainslie
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008
     
    @JJenZz: how many other identities do you have?
    •  
      CommentAuthorperthmetro
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008
     
    And the fact you'd "never" put in the effort to make a free design as that of a paid one distinguishes you apart from many other designers here. You see, they showcase what they're capable of rather than just trying to whip something up that has a link to their site for the purpose of attention.

    I'd rather have 10 good designers here than 50 ordinary ones
    • CommentAuthorainslie
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008
     
    I believe in Open Source. That's why this website is "Open Designs". That's why many of us are here.

    It's not about design. It's about freedom!
    •  
      CommentAuthorperthmetro
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008 edited by perthmetro on the 24th May 2008 at 13:58:07 EDT
     
    Hey Jen, can you show us a design you did entirely by yourself that you got paid for?
    •  
      CommentAuthorJJenZz
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008
     
    Posted By: fernbapAnd you are saying that you PREFER not to show the best of you to the world??? That is what i call devious thinking

    No offence and I hate to sound big headed but if what I submit under my ODT account quite clearly gets downloaded way more than the other designs submitted at the same time, then why should I have to make the extra effort for something I am offering free? People clearly think they are better than the others, otherwise they wouldnt be downloaded so much, so I still stand out from the crowd and that is all that is needed.

    Posted By: ainslie@JJenZz: how many other identities do you have?

    Just JJenZz and odt... that is it.
    •  
      CommentAuthorJJenZz
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008 edited by JJenZz on the 25th May 2008 at 14:41:08 EDT
     
    Posted By: perthmetroHey Jen, can you show us a design you did by entirely by yourself that you got paid for?

    [link removed]
    [link removed]
    [link removed]

    and all but 2 of the designs on [link removed]

    EDIT: I removed my links.
    •  
      CommentAuthorperthmetro
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008
     
    Posted By: JJenZzhen why should I have to make the extra effort for something I am offering free?

    Umm let's see,
    1. cause it allows new designers to learn from you.
    2. cause you ocassionally want to raise the standard of designs in this community
    3. cause you can and your Mum always told you to try your best.
    4. cause you might feel good doing it
    • CommentAuthorfernbap
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008
     
    Posted By: JJenZz
    ... then why should I have to make the extra effort for something I am offering free?


    and that's why you need sponsored links
    •  
      CommentAuthorJJenZz
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008
     
    Posted By: perthmetro1. cause it allows new designers to learn from you.
    2. cause you ocassionally want to raise the standard of designs in this community
    3. cause you can and your Mum always told you to try your best.
    4. cause you might feel good doing it


    1. and they do
    2. and i do as the downloads show
    3. she would never tell me to try my best on a free job
    4. i already do
    • CommentAuthorTrin
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008
     
    I don't quite understand why a link back to your website is not enough compensation for some. Surely if you offer a quality free template, most will want to see what else you have to offer... I know that I always check out the designer's site.

    I think that sponsored links are simply greediness personified and that they take away from the spirit of open source.

    At the end of all of this debate, what will be decided is the spirit of opendesigns... nothing more, nothing less.
    •  
      CommentAuthorJJenZz
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008
     
    Posted By: fernbapand that's why you need sponsored links

    If you're talking me personally, I don't need sponsored links. I don't use them and never will.
    •  
      CommentAuthorJJenZz
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008
     
    Posted By: TrinI don't quite understand why a link back to your website is not enough compensation for some. Surely if you offer a quality free template, most will want to see what else you have to offer... I know that I always check out the designer's site.

    Someone coming to look at your site doesn't make you money unless they hire you and if you are a freelancer with a family of mouths to feed struggling to earn a bit of cash one month (because there are always dry periods as a freelancer) then a quick sponsored link may be your only option.

    Having the link there is not stopping downloaders families from eating tongue
    • CommentAuthorainslie
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008
     
    Ok come on guys. Lets realise that this is turning into a talking shop again. Is this really achieving anything.

    Now I don't agree with JJenZz but I sure as hell believe she is entitled to her opinion. Give her a break. Jenna maybe you should take a break for ten mins :-)

    Hey I'm moderating! Don;t kill me :-)

    The important question is, how do we move forward?
    • CommentAuthorTrin
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008
     
    Someone coming to look at your site doesn't make you money unless they hire you and if you are a freelancer with a family of mouths to feed struggling to earn a bit of cash one month (because there are always dry periods as a freelancer) then a quick sponsored link may be your only option.

    Having the link there is not stopping downloaders families from eating tongue


    Then by all means, monetize your own site as much as you desire. Plaster it with affiliate links, adsense, kontera, anything you like to make a buck.
    •  
      CommentAuthorperthmetro
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008
     
    Posted By: JJenZz
    1. and they do
    2. and i do as the downloads show
    3. she would never tell me to try my best on a free job
    4. i already do


    1. they can't learn from something that isn't here. I meant... they can learn more if you submit a 'better' design, but you won't do that so they can't learn from you.
    2. I meant raise the standards with your 'better' designs, your current designs here are nice but don't do much to raise/challenge the current designers, your 'better' ones might, so why not at least one? And downloads don't indicate a raising of the standards.
    3. My mum would... she made sure that I did a good job for my own sake and wasn't driven by money (she reckon it helped me with all that personal development stuff), cause one day the money wont be there and you'll still need to be able to do a good job to find the money again (I'm sure there's a Aesop's fable about this point)
    4. I meant... you'd feel good submitting a 'better' design. I feel good when I help the oldies and even more so cause i'm not being paid.

    Nice designs Jen. To be honest until you showed me them I didn't realise you were that capable... can you see my point now why it's good for you and your $$ to show us what your 'capable' of?
    • CommentAuthorainslie
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008
     
    We really need to come up with a way to move forward.

    If I post thread where members can take a vote and nothing else would anybody do it or just try and discuss it?
    •  
      CommentAuthorperthmetro
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008
     
    Posted By: JJenZzSomeone coming to look at your site doesn't make you money unless they hire you and if you are a freelancer with a family of mouths to feed struggling to earn a bit of cash one month (because there are always dry periods as a freelancer) then a quick sponsored link may be your only option.

    Having the link there is not stopping downloaders families from eating tongue


    But Jen, this is not the site to help designers feed their families, there are heaps of other sites that are for that, OD isn't. Why can't designer's just accept that of all the sites around the net this one isn't geared for feeding their family. It's just for letting other's know what they are capable of, hosting their designs and linking to their websites.

    Just an idea, why don't we charge designers to host their designs (with all the sponsors links they want) here? or if they choose not too have sponsored links then we'll forego the normal fees... $1 a link per month.
    After all Sean and Chris and Joe and the mods do the best they can for free, and they need to feed their families too.

    Hmmm, not so appealing when the shoe's on the other foot hey!

    My point: designers may be submitting designs for 'free' but they are also getting an incredible service for free too. The admins work their hardest here without using sponsored links so why shouldn't the designers work their hardest here without using sponsored links?
    • CommentAuthorTrin
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008 edited by Trin on the 24th May 2008 at 14:53:23 EDT
     
    I appreciate you trying to bring this to a resolution ainslie, but so long as this discussion doesn't turn into a slugfest, is there that much of a rush on? I don't see any deadlines in place.wink

    edited to add:

    Insofar as a voting thread, why not simply state in the first post that any extraneous comments will be edited out promptly?
    • CommentAuthorainslie
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008 edited by ainslie on the 24th May 2008 at 14:53:44 EDT
     
    No there is no rush. bakie

    We are going round and round in circles. There are so many strong opinions and very little compromise. I see people getting more and more hot under the collar. This is a good community made up of mostly good people. I try and cool things down a little.

    It is Saturday evening here. I think I may go out for a while. cool
    • CommentAuthorTrin
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008
     
    I agree that there are strong opinions and little compromise, but perhaps that is necessary, since OD needs a strong sense of itself, once and for all.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSean
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008 edited by Sean on the 24th May 2008 at 14:58:48 EDT
     
    *insert Brave Heart voice*

    FREEDOM!!!! bakie
    •  
      CommentAuthorperthmetro
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008
     
    I think the same as what we did for the theme vote whereby the post is copied and repasted with the new vote - but let's make the question very very simple and unambiguous, like ...

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    "Do you support sponsored links (of any type and in any form - removable or not etc.) in submitted designs?"

    We will only count "Yes" or "No" votes

    Please don't explain or leave a comment on your vote - they won't be counted

    If you can't answer only Yes or No, then don't vote.

    Discussions on the rules can be done HERE
    • CommentAuthorfernbap
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008 edited by fernbap on the 24th May 2008 at 15:52:46 EDT
     
    Let's look at one of the most downloaded designs here.

    What makes it "stand out from the crowd"?

    1. It's a business design
    2. It's extremely easy to customize. You just have to replace the background images, eventually alter background color, and there you have it! An "original design" that you can sell to your customer.

    And that's what makes that design "stand out from the crowd". (please don't get me wrong, that is a nice template, i'm not trying to bash it).

    Many downloads doesn't forcibly mean better design.
    • CommentAuthorainslie
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008
     
    Posted By: ainslieI believe in Open Source. That's why this website is "Open Designs". That's why many of us are here.

    It's not about design. It's about freedom!


    ...and that's not free as in free beer. If you cut me in half it says Open Source in a circle around my spine. bigsmile

    FREEDOM!!! bakie
    • CommentAuthorSkyshadow
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008
     
    "Do you support sponsored links (of any type and in any form - removable or not etc.) in submitted designs?" -

    Within the current rules? - i.e no porn, overtly racist etc, etc - or do you mean a free for all? It seems easier to just say 'no sponsored links' and then nothing ugly could happen and there is another level less to deal with admin side.

    Maybe some clarification - or is the idea simply to let whatever will be will be? - if so pls make it clear?

    Peace
  33.  
    Listen, we can debate this subject till Frank Skettino comes back from the grave. It's obvious we won't reach a decision by dragging out this argument.

    What we need now is a vote. I think all the opinions have been laid out on the table.

    I strongly believe that this is a community site, so all registered members should have the chance to do so. Since we have no voting system in place, all we can do is something like this post.

    Make your vote count, without beating this dead horse of a conversation.
    •  
      CommentAuthorJeremyD
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008
     
    "we can debate this subject till Frank Skettino comes back from the grave"

    LOL!

    anyway, I agree with the rest of your post. we need to stop arguing and just vote.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSean
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008
     
    Posted By: acousticsamListen, we can debate this subject till Frank Skettino comes back from the grave.

    Frank has nothing to do with how things are on OD.
    •  
      CommentAuthorJeremyD
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008
     
    I think he meant we can keep fighting forever. Because obviously skettino is never coming back to his site.
  37.  
    I'm adamantly opposed to the wording of the vote. I had to vote "yes" and yet I'm strongly opposed to the kind of sponsored links that started this whole thing. However, I think that sponsored links in Public Domain templates are fine. Actually, any sponsored links that can be removed are fine in my opinion, but people that sponsor public domain templates are awesome. My company, Xavisys (small and family run), has been trying to figure out what we can do to benefit our community, online and off. We're thinking about designating 20% of the gross of the business to make an impact, and one of things I was thinking about doing was sponsoring some public domain templates. Some of the people on here spend a lot of time creating high quality free templates. I'd like to say thanks. I see nothing wrong with that person putting a line in the footer that says "This template made possible by Xavisys"
    •  
      CommentAuthorperthmetro
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008
     
    @Aaron, this is my vote question, it's not the site's. I only asked it as there are 100 different permutations of the question. To me the question is more a philosophical one than a detailed one.

    Hopefully the vote may give us somewhere to go from, and head to.

    In regard to having sponsored links, don't just explain why they good for you but try to read all the previous posts/threads and address their concerns too (there's a heap of them out there), they're the one's you need to convince.

    thanks for voting
  39.  
    @perth: I've read every post, in each of the [current] threads related to this. I was trying to again state my position, as well as point out that your poll doesn't do much to address any of those previous concerns. If it's just for your information, and not meant as an effort toward the solution, then my vote stands. If it's meant as an effort toward a solution, it's my opinion that you will have to clearly define some additional positions, and add them as options. However...that's just my opinion.
    •  
      CommentAuthorgreg
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008
     
    admins: please hurry up, make a decision and implement it. i woke up this morning, clicked on to the opendesigns forum and was greeted with 60 new posts in this pointless, circular discussion and about 2 new posts within actual discussions. this is not a nice place to visit. everyone is arguing their point of view (some a lot more excessively than others) and it SUCKS. we go on and on about how this is a community site, yet the current state of the community makes me want to close firefox and take up kickboxing.
    •  
      CommentAuthorperthmetro
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008
     
    Posted By: gregthe current state of the community makes me want to close firefox and take up kickboxing.


    Maybe some yoga and lemon tea may be in order. I read the same as you greg but i don't get upset by it. I see a great range of views and ideas. As passionate as i get I also temper that with big does of reality and laughs (where possible at my expense) This community is not my world, it's only a hobby, and... you get where i'm coming from?

    I'll email you if you like and let you know when it's all over, I don't want to see you hurt yourself like this!
    •  
      CommentAuthorperthmetro
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008
     
    Posted By: aaroncampbellIf it's just for your information


    The vote's results are for whoever wants to take what they like from it how ever they like. It may be no good for you, but very useful for others. Like I said, it's 'something' to start from.

    I like yes/no answers for two reasons.
    1. it makes people make a decision and take one of two sides rather than have 100 sides or fence sitting or arguing over small details (and yes i understand that comes at a cost of not being entirely accurate).
    2. it prevents the vote and the process of getting something done turning into a talk fest.

    In the very least this vote will give a very broad indication on how we feel about sponsored links.
    •  
      CommentAuthorgnome
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008 edited by gnome on the 24th May 2008 at 23:06:54 EDT
     
    Jen: You are ODT? now that clears up a lot of confusion for me (I still read bits and pieces of the forum at OWD).

    Allrighty folks, lets get down to business: I don't like Christopher's proposal, because it would be unpleasant to implement and enforce. I'd rather not deal with the problems of policing anything. This is my proposal:

    Under no circumstances will templates be accepted to TODC which require end-users to maintain links to anyone except the designer (CC Attrib license only only).

    All links inside templates (regardless of where they lead) will have rel=nofollow added to the template previews here.


    Now my question is this: is there any harm to the community if low-quality-design-link-farmers get no improved search engine rankings out of posting here? This will keep the designers happy, since nobody has opposed the rel="nofollow" (if you do, speak up now or we'll have to go over all of this theoretical ground again if you do it later); it will keep the end users happy, since they can just remove the links when they use the templates; it will keep this place in the good graces of the search engines because it will have no wild-and-wonderful tangle of design-embedded outbound links. This makes everybody happy, unless I missed something.

    Edit: major revision
    •  
      CommentAuthorJeremyD
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2008
     
    I'm all for the rel="nofollow". But it just seems like a lot of extra work for whoever is approving templates. Is there some way to automate it?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSean
    • CommentTimeMay 25th 2008 edited by Sean on the 25th May 2008 at 00:20:52 EDT
     
    @JeremyD: It would only take a couple seconds to add the rel="nofollow" manually to the OD demo version of any new design submission. Of course it would take a little time to go back and add it to previously approved designs with sponsored links but it would be worth it.

    As for automating the process, we wouldn't want to automate it because there is a good chance it might do a false positive and add it to an author link. With manually doing it, we can also hold the design approvers accountable for doing it or not.
    •  
      CommentAuthorperthmetro
    • CommentTimeMay 25th 2008
     
    No one else has given any indication how we would police 'inappropriate' links?

    I'm going to 'maintain the rage' and say no to all sponsored links (SL) - let this site be a shining beacon of opensourceness - let it be different than all the other sites. If we make it like this then they will come.

    Too bad if this site becomes a community of hobbyists and every professional deserts us - at least we'll be open source in the true sense.

    Lets not allow any sponsored links when the poll so far is indicating as such. If we SL them it will be a huge invitation for someone to start another site that OD was meant to be.

    OpenReaction donates the hosting i dare say as a free unconditional community service - we should be doing the same.

    Let those who don't want to submit designs without SL find another place. If there is no other place and they go hungry then that's not our problem. We are not here to pay for their food.

    There are plenty of freelance community websites for that.
    •  
      CommentAuthorgnome
    • CommentTimeMay 25th 2008 edited by gnome on the 25th May 2008 at 09:21:05 EDT
     
    Sean and Jeremy: I think that adding rel=nofollow should be an automated process, including all links in previews, even author links, because it will be too hard to tell which are sponsored, which are author, and which are just shout-outs in the templates.

    Pete: why not allow removable sponsored links in templates? I don't think that we will have many link-mongers building simple templates, because it won't benefit them.
  48.  
    I think that adding rel=nofollow should be an automated process, including all links in previews, even author links

    +1

    Authors have a well indexed link to their website on their profile page anyway. For example my profile page currently has a pagerank of 5.
    •  
      CommentAuthorgnome
    • CommentTimeMay 25th 2008
     
    Christopher: I am hoping that no one will take issue with that proposal, so that we can move forward.
    • CommentAuthorainslie
    • CommentTimeMay 25th 2008 edited by ainslie on the 25th May 2008 at 10:54:57 EDT
     
    Not taking issue with something isn't a sign of approval. (Not that I am getting at you here, you are one of the more active mods.)

    Why are people opposed to a vote on this?

    I'm quite happy to back whatever decision is reached as long as it is arrived at properly.

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